蓝天碧水168的个人主页 - 老虎社区

蓝天碧水168

蓝天碧水168

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IP属地：福建

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蓝天碧水168

2025-01-07

$容联云(RAASY)$

蓝天碧水168

2021-11-26

$TIGR 20211217 12.5 CALL$ 高手

蓝天碧水168

2022-04-09

$容联云(RAAS)$买后不管

蓝天碧水168

2021-02-05

$老虎证券(TIGR)$坚持的结果

蓝天碧水168

2020-11-03

$老虎证券(TIGR)$老虎证券老总总是认为是后来者，业绩没有那么快。没有想着怎么更好服务客户。最基本系统都卡的要死，老是显示链接超时，更换线路。真是气死了。

蓝天碧水168

2020-03-23

$美国原油ETF(USO)$先小入金一点，现在全仓买，买完后现金余额为0了。但是下面显示要保证金1809美元，是不是还要再入金1809美元吗？

蓝天碧水168

2020-03-17

$美国原油ETF(USO)$ETF是股票还是期货有杠杆吗

蓝天碧水168

2022-05-11

$蔚来(NIO)$做空

蓝天碧水168

2021-08-25

$TIGR 20211217 12.5 CALL(TIGR)$涨吧

蓝天碧水168

2022-04-28

$蔚来(NIO)$做空

去老虎APP查看更多动态

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08:26","market":"us","language":"zh","title":"李若山：在美国上市要“裸奔”“拼爹”","url":"https://stock-news.laohu8.com/highlight/detail?id=2050488090","media":"中国新闻周刊","summary":"(在美上市的中国企业因瑞幸事件会受到多大程度的影响，这是事件后人们重点关注的方向之一。图/视觉中国)李若山：在美国上市要“裸奔”“拼爹”本刊记者/贺斌发于2020.7.13总第955期《中国新闻周刊》","content":"<html><body><article><img src=\"http://inews.gtimg.com/newsapp_match/0/12063614805/0\"/><p>(在美上市的中国企业因瑞幸事件会受到多大程度的影响，这是事件后人们重点关注的方向之一。图/<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/000681\">视觉中国</a>)</p><p><strong>李若山：在美国上市要“裸奔”“拼爹”</strong></p><p>本刊记者/贺斌</p><p>发于2020.7.13总第955期《中国新闻周刊》</p><p>对复旦大学管理学院会计硕士专业项目学术主任李若山的采访，正好是7月5日晚上，<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/LK\">瑞幸咖啡</a>当天下午召开的临时股东大会，提出罢免四名董事，并新增两名独立董事。直到晚间，才有非官方消息陆陆续续放出来。</p><p>谈到独立董事邵孝恒和两个外部董事都离开瑞幸董事会，未来的内部调查或无法进行，李若山反问，“对于瑞幸来说，你觉得内部调查有意义吗？”</p><p>在他看来，内部调查最大的问题就是缺乏独立性，一群利益相关者花钱请所谓专业机构来开展内部调查，其目的可能只是撇清自己。</p><p>作为我国自己培养的第一位审计学博士，李若山对于瑞幸这场轰轰烈烈的财务造假用了两个词——“错误”与“丢脸”。更重要的是，因为瑞幸事件，中概股的整体形象受到很大影响。但在他看来，中概股的回归未必是件坏事，通过瑞幸咖啡事件，整顿整顿如今的企业，好好培育，过5~10年再走出去。</p><p><strong>“中美两国的监管部门，做的都是独立调查”</strong></p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：7月1日，瑞幸发布内部调查报告，你对调查结果怎么看？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：我觉得，内部调查是个很荒谬的事情。假如一户人家出了一件大丑闻，欺骗了外面的大部分人，然后这户人家组织一个调查，拿出一个结果，你会采信吗？</p><p>内部调查最大的问题就是缺乏独立性。参与调查的人肯定会把自己的责任撇清，但出问题的时候你在哪里？难道独立董事和外部董事没有责任吗？大家都是利益相关者，最后做出一个内部调查，拿出一个结果作为处罚依据，SEC会全部采信吗？即使内部调查是聘请独立的第三方机构来做，依然会站在出资人的立场上。</p><p>因此，无论从法律上、专业上，还是从独立性上，内部调查都是很荒谬的事情，之所以还要有这样一个程序，就是为了撇清自己。证监会也好，法院也好，任何一个证券处罚机构，最多只是将内部调查作为参考，但绝对不会采用。</p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：目前SEC还未展开调查，一般会是怎样的调查程序？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：一般来说，由SEC下属美国公众公司会计监督委员会（PCAOB）正式立案，这是由来自会计师事务所、律师事务所的社会人士组成的专门委员会，他们会正式立案调查会计造假过程。调查之后，还需要一个漫长的听证过程，甚至1~3年。</p><p>按照萨班斯法案，具体监管人员，从CFO到董事长，如果是知情人士，将会面临很严的刑罚，此前世界通讯公司和安然公司相关主管都被判22年~25年监禁。此外，公司和个人还将面临巨额罚款，包括赔偿股东的损失。</p><p>美国有证券交易法，有萨班斯法案，根据这些法案，查清主使人，不仅限于财务人员，还包括公司的实际控制人，如果知情或参与，也是要受到刑事处罚。这将是一个复杂且漫长的过程。</p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：萨班斯法案如何解决瑞幸这样的问题？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：这就涉及萨班斯法案的立法背景。美国安然公司爆出造假丑闻后，一旦进入法律诉讼程序，无论是董事长还是总经理，都以不知情为由，将责任甩锅给下属。</p><p>此后，美国就颁布了萨班斯法案，规定无论是董事长、总裁，还是财务总监，都有责任去建立一个完善的内控体系。如果没有建立这个内控体系，董事长、总裁和财务总监都将承担法律责任。</p><p>在一个完善的内控体系之下，公司高层要求定期与审计委员会沟通，对于内控的评估和建设，要有专门的机构鉴定内控审计报告等。</p><p>而在证券法和公司法之下，萨班斯法案都会有具体的规定，明知下属有财务造假却不关注，就犯了渎职罪，有很多法规可以适用。</p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：中国证监会、财政部和市场监管总局都进驻到瑞幸开展现场调查，为什么会有这么严格的调查？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：瑞幸是一家美国上市公司，但通过VIE模式，企业的运营是在中国境内。这样的上市企业发生财务造假行为，欺骗了美国的投资者，SEC当然要对它进行监管，按照萨班斯法案对它进行处罚。</p><p>同样，它也欺骗了中国的投资者、中国的债权人，也可能存在欺诈行为，中国证监会对其调查、立案、处罚，按照中国的证券法、中国的公司法都可以对它进行处罚。</p><p>实际上，中美两国的监管部门，做的都是独立调查，不存在谁配合谁，谁协调谁的问题，这是主权问题。</p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：新证券法提出一个长臂管辖权的问题，是否对瑞幸适用？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：新证券法是今年3月正式实施的，瑞幸造假最早在去年4月，按照法不溯及既往原则，可能长臂管辖问题未必适用。但是面对这些问题，不一定要用证券法，也可以用公司法或者其他法来进行。</p><p><strong>“现在最大的不确定性就是对管理层、股东的追责”</strong></p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：目前一些投资人已经开始提起诉讼，向瑞幸公司索赔，如何展开赔偿？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：投资者的损失很明显，股价从最高的51美元，跌到现在的1.38美元。跌去95％以上，损失惨重。目前，许多投资者准备通过美国证券法中集体诉讼的法律，来起诉瑞幸咖啡，要求赔偿损失，而且，还在寻找首席原告作为立案的依据。现在粗粗算一下，按照目前瑞幸的市值，这么多投资者，这么多的投资损失，如何赔偿是一个复杂的问题。</p><p>如果美国法院判决大股东们赔偿而大股东又无力支付时，美国法院通常会采用“深口袋理论”，就是去寻找与此案相关的所有中介机构，包括投行、券商、律师及会计师，找那些有能力出钱赔偿的单位，千方百计地寻找他们工作中的缺陷与问题，并以此扣上连带责任。安然公司和世界通讯公司都是这样赔偿的，估计瑞幸咖啡也不会例外吧。</p><p>除此之外，在美国也有一套处理方法，就是萨班斯法案，倒逼企业建立完善的内控体系，防患于未然。</p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：目前来说，瑞幸在美国退市已是必然，如果回到国内，还有没有可能继续保持健康的发展，甚至重新在A股或港股上市？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：这种概率等于0，不可能。虽然有3万多员工，稳就业固然重要，但也不会迁就犯法的经营行为。即使企业的高层都已经换掉，也不太可能保持原来公司的组织架构，除非被收购。这个企业最好的结果就是被收购。但我估计要维持现在的模式、品牌、架构、组织，基本上不可能，而且现在瑞幸也没有什么资产了，连咖啡机都被质押出去了。</p><p>所以，现在最大的不确定性就是对管理层、股东的追责，到底到哪一个层面，到底有多大的责任，谁是主谋，谁是操纵者，谁去坐牢，谁去赔款？这些都要等调查结束以后才能知道。</p><p><strong>中国新闻周刊：在这次瑞幸咖啡事件中，中国监管层反复提到跨境监管问题，这对未来中概股有怎样的影响？</strong></p><p><strong>李若山</strong>：对于美国这个证券市场，我们不要一看到他们上市的门槛低，就觉得是一个机会，或者认为是一个可以钻漏洞的市场，等你真正进入美国证券市场后，会发现，美国的“韭菜”不是那么好割的，赔“韭菜”的钱可能大大高于割“韭菜”的收入。</p><p>因此，美国证监会在注册公司上市时，非常注重保荐公司的名声与实力，如<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/UBS\">瑞银</a>、摩根及四大会计师事务所等，除了他们的工作质量外，赔偿能力也是杠杠的。所以，在美国上市一定要求两个原则：“裸奔”“拼爹”。前者要求信息披露真实完整，后者要求中介机构有保证能力。</p><p>当然，好企业在美国还是受欢迎的，只是现在大家一窝蜂地过去，鱼龙混杂，并不利于塑造中国企业良好的形象。</p><p>现在，中概股回归也基本上成为一种潮流了。因为中国在一个发展的过程中，在市场经济条件下，很难产生一个成熟的、内控架构都很完善的企业。所以要到美国市场上市，肯定会遇到方方面面的问题。我认为回来未必是件坏事，通过瑞幸咖啡事件，整顿整顿如今的企业，好好培育，过5~10年再走出去。</p></article></body></html>","source":"tencent","collect":0,"html":"<!DOCTYPE html>\n<html>\n<head>\n<meta http-equiv=\"Content-Type\" content=\"text/html; charset=utf-8\" />\n<meta name=\"viewport\" content=\"width=device-width,initial-scale=1.0,minimum-scale=1.0,maximum-scale=1.0,user-scalable=no\"/>\n<meta name=\"format-detection\" content=\"telephone=no,email=no,address=no\" />\n<title>李若山：在美国上市要“裸奔”“拼爹”</title>\n<style 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margin: 0;line-height: 11px;}\n.small {font-size: 12.5px; display: inline-block; transform: scale(0.9); -webkit-transform: scale(0.9); transform-origin: left; -webkit-transform-origin: left;}\n.smaller {font-size: 12.5px; display: inline-block; transform: scale(0.8); -webkit-transform: scale(0.8); transform-origin: left; -webkit-transform-origin: left;}\n.bt-text {font-size: 12px;margin: 1.5em 0 0 0}\n.bt-text p {margin: 0}\n</style>\n</head>\n<body>\n<div class=\"wrapper\">\n<header>\n<h2 class=\"title\">\n李若山：在美国上市要“裸奔”“拼爹”\n</h2>\n\n<h4 class=\"meta\">\n\n\n2020-07-10 08:26 北京时间&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=http://gu.qq.com/resources/shy/news/detail-v2/index.html#/?id=nesSN2020071008312279500209&s=b><strong>中国新闻周刊</strong></a>\n\n\n</h4>\n\n</header>\n<article>\n<div>\n<p>(在美上市的中国企业因瑞幸事件会受到多大程度的影响，这是事件后人们重点关注的方向之一。图/视觉中国)李若山：在美国上市要“裸奔”“拼爹”本刊记者/贺斌发于2020.7.13总第955期《中国新闻周刊》对复旦大学管理学院会计硕士专业项目学术主任李若山的采访，正好是7月5日晚上，瑞幸咖啡当天下午召开的临时股东大会，提出罢免四名董事，并新增两名独立董事。直到晚间，才有非官方消息陆陆续续放出来。谈到独立...</p>\n\n<a href=\"http://gu.qq.com/resources/shy/news/detail-v2/index.html#/?id=nesSN2020071008312279500209&s=b\">网页链接</a>\n\n</div>\n\n\n</article>\n</div>\n</body>\n</html>\n","type":0,"thumbnail":"https://static.tigerbbs.com/d3996b843dd6a60eaa5e5d861b252f6a","relate_stocks":{"LKNCY":"瑞幸咖啡"},"source_url":"http://gu.qq.com/resources/shy/news/detail-v2/index.html#/?id=nesSN2020071008312279500209&s=b","is_english":false,"share_image_url":"https://static.laohu8.com/9a95c1376e76363c1401fee7d3717173","article_id":"2050488090","content_text":"(在美上市的中国企业因瑞幸事件会受到多大程度的影响，这是事件后人们重点关注的方向之一。图/视觉中国)李若山：在美国上市要“裸奔”“拼爹”本刊记者/贺斌发于2020.7.13总第955期《中国新闻周刊》对复旦大学管理学院会计硕士专业项目学术主任李若山的采访，正好是7月5日晚上，瑞幸咖啡当天下午召开的临时股东大会，提出罢免四名董事，并新增两名独立董事。直到晚间，才有非官方消息陆陆续续放出来。谈到独立董事邵孝恒和两个外部董事都离开瑞幸董事会，未来的内部调查或无法进行，李若山反问，“对于瑞幸来说，你觉得内部调查有意义吗？”在他看来，内部调查最大的问题就是缺乏独立性，一群利益相关者花钱请所谓专业机构来开展内部调查，其目的可能只是撇清自己。作为我国自己培养的第一位审计学博士，李若山对于瑞幸这场轰轰烈烈的财务造假用了两个词——“错误”与“丢脸”。更重要的是，因为瑞幸事件，中概股的整体形象受到很大影响。但在他看来，中概股的回归未必是件坏事，通过瑞幸咖啡事件，整顿整顿如今的企业，好好培育，过5~10年再走出去。“中美两国的监管部门，做的都是独立调查”中国新闻周刊：7月1日，瑞幸发布内部调查报告，你对调查结果怎么看？李若山：我觉得，内部调查是个很荒谬的事情。假如一户人家出了一件大丑闻，欺骗了外面的大部分人，然后这户人家组织一个调查，拿出一个结果，你会采信吗？内部调查最大的问题就是缺乏独立性。参与调查的人肯定会把自己的责任撇清，但出问题的时候你在哪里？难道独立董事和外部董事没有责任吗？大家都是利益相关者，最后做出一个内部调查，拿出一个结果作为处罚依据，SEC会全部采信吗？即使内部调查是聘请独立的第三方机构来做，依然会站在出资人的立场上。因此，无论从法律上、专业上，还是从独立性上，内部调查都是很荒谬的事情，之所以还要有这样一个程序，就是为了撇清自己。证监会也好，法院也好，任何一个证券处罚机构，最多只是将内部调查作为参考，但绝对不会采用。中国新闻周刊：目前SEC还未展开调查，一般会是怎样的调查程序？李若山：一般来说，由SEC下属美国公众公司会计监督委员会（PCAOB）正式立案，这是由来自会计师事务所、律师事务所的社会人士组成的专门委员会，他们会正式立案调查会计造假过程。调查之后，还需要一个漫长的听证过程，甚至1~3年。按照萨班斯法案，具体监管人员，从CFO到董事长，如果是知情人士，将会面临很严的刑罚，此前世界通讯公司和安然公司相关主管都被判22年~25年监禁。此外，公司和个人还将面临巨额罚款，包括赔偿股东的损失。美国有证券交易法，有萨班斯法案，根据这些法案，查清主使人，不仅限于财务人员，还包括公司的实际控制人，如果知情或参与，也是要受到刑事处罚。这将是一个复杂且漫长的过程。中国新闻周刊：萨班斯法案如何解决瑞幸这样的问题？李若山：这就涉及萨班斯法案的立法背景。美国安然公司爆出造假丑闻后，一旦进入法律诉讼程序，无论是董事长还是总经理，都以不知情为由，将责任甩锅给下属。此后，美国就颁布了萨班斯法案，规定无论是董事长、总裁，还是财务总监，都有责任去建立一个完善的内控体系。如果没有建立这个内控体系，董事长、总裁和财务总监都将承担法律责任。在一个完善的内控体系之下，公司高层要求定期与审计委员会沟通，对于内控的评估和建设，要有专门的机构鉴定内控审计报告等。而在证券法和公司法之下，萨班斯法案都会有具体的规定，明知下属有财务造假却不关注，就犯了渎职罪，有很多法规可以适用。中国新闻周刊：中国证监会、财政部和市场监管总局都进驻到瑞幸开展现场调查，为什么会有这么严格的调查？李若山：瑞幸是一家美国上市公司，但通过VIE模式，企业的运营是在中国境内。这样的上市企业发生财务造假行为，欺骗了美国的投资者，SEC当然要对它进行监管，按照萨班斯法案对它进行处罚。同样，它也欺骗了中国的投资者、中国的债权人，也可能存在欺诈行为，中国证监会对其调查、立案、处罚，按照中国的证券法、中国的公司法都可以对它进行处罚。实际上，中美两国的监管部门，做的都是独立调查，不存在谁配合谁，谁协调谁的问题，这是主权问题。中国新闻周刊：新证券法提出一个长臂管辖权的问题，是否对瑞幸适用？李若山：新证券法是今年3月正式实施的，瑞幸造假最早在去年4月，按照法不溯及既往原则，可能长臂管辖问题未必适用。但是面对这些问题，不一定要用证券法，也可以用公司法或者其他法来进行。“现在最大的不确定性就是对管理层、股东的追责”中国新闻周刊：目前一些投资人已经开始提起诉讼，向瑞幸公司索赔，如何展开赔偿？李若山：投资者的损失很明显，股价从最高的51美元，跌到现在的1.38美元。跌去95％以上，损失惨重。目前，许多投资者准备通过美国证券法中集体诉讼的法律，来起诉瑞幸咖啡，要求赔偿损失，而且，还在寻找首席原告作为立案的依据。现在粗粗算一下，按照目前瑞幸的市值，这么多投资者，这么多的投资损失，如何赔偿是一个复杂的问题。如果美国法院判决大股东们赔偿而大股东又无力支付时，美国法院通常会采用“深口袋理论”，就是去寻找与此案相关的所有中介机构，包括投行、券商、律师及会计师，找那些有能力出钱赔偿的单位，千方百计地寻找他们工作中的缺陷与问题，并以此扣上连带责任。安然公司和世界通讯公司都是这样赔偿的，估计瑞幸咖啡也不会例外吧。除此之外，在美国也有一套处理方法，就是萨班斯法案，倒逼企业建立完善的内控体系，防患于未然。中国新闻周刊：目前来说，瑞幸在美国退市已是必然，如果回到国内，还有没有可能继续保持健康的发展，甚至重新在A股或港股上市？李若山：这种概率等于0，不可能。虽然有3万多员工，稳就业固然重要，但也不会迁就犯法的经营行为。即使企业的高层都已经换掉，也不太可能保持原来公司的组织架构，除非被收购。这个企业最好的结果就是被收购。但我估计要维持现在的模式、品牌、架构、组织，基本上不可能，而且现在瑞幸也没有什么资产了，连咖啡机都被质押出去了。所以，现在最大的不确定性就是对管理层、股东的追责，到底到哪一个层面，到底有多大的责任，谁是主谋，谁是操纵者，谁去坐牢，谁去赔款？这些都要等调查结束以后才能知道。中国新闻周刊：在这次瑞幸咖啡事件中，中国监管层反复提到跨境监管问题，这对未来中概股有怎样的影响？李若山：对于美国这个证券市场，我们不要一看到他们上市的门槛低，就觉得是一个机会，或者认为是一个可以钻漏洞的市场，等你真正进入美国证券市场后，会发现，美国的“韭菜”不是那么好割的，赔“韭菜”的钱可能大大高于割“韭菜”的收入。因此，美国证监会在注册公司上市时，非常注重保荐公司的名声与实力，如瑞银、摩根及四大会计师事务所等，除了他们的工作质量外，赔偿能力也是杠杠的。所以，在美国上市一定要求两个原则：“裸奔”“拼爹”。前者要求信息披露真实完整，后者要求中介机构有保证能力。当然，好企业在美国还是受欢迎的，只是现在大家一窝蜂地过去，鱼龙混杂，并不利于塑造中国企业良好的形象。现在，中概股回归也基本上成为一种潮流了。因为中国在一个发展的过程中，在市场经济条件下，很难产生一个成熟的、内控架构都很完善的企业。所以要到美国市场上市，肯定会遇到方方面面的问题。我认为回来未必是件坏事，通过瑞幸咖啡事件，整顿整顿如今的企业，好好培育，过5~10年再走出去。","news_type":1,"symbols_score_info":{"LK":0.9,"LKNCY":0.6}},"isVote":1,"tweetType":1,"viewCount":1989,"authorTweetTopStatus":1,"verified":2,"comments":[],"imageCount":0,"langContent":"CN","totalScore":0}],"hots":[{"id":389760845361704,"gmtCreate":1736203637565,"gmtModify":1736209105496,"author":{"id":"3515578245497905","authorId":"3515578245497905","name":"蓝天碧水168","avatar":"https://static.tigerbbs.com/9f5307e002eafc8039f3dae77479cf71","crmLevel":2,"crmLevelSwitch":0,"followedFlag":false,"authorIdStr":"3515578245497905","idStr":"3515578245497905"},"themes":[],"title":"","htmlText":"<a 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